Please, it's not 'wild camping'

Would suit well, some of the people parking here suit the term "Wild Parking".. jokes aside...


Curious: Is their a legal definition or guidlines between Parking and Camping? or is it something that we try to get across to others but no real legal means to back it up?

Surely once you stay the night and sleep in a van you are camping?

We all know what 'parking' means, we do it when we temporarily halt our vehicle other than when forced to do so as a result of traffic/road conditions. I am unaware of any legislative definition for this 'common or garden' activity.

Drawing on the French experience the difference between 'camping' and 'parking' is clearly defined in local bye-laws which govern the use of Aires de Stationnenemt pour Camping-cars (literally, parking places for motor caravans). The bye-laws clearly forbid activities such as putting out awnings, chairs, tables and other equipment and the hanging out of washing. To abide by the regulations, only the wheels can touch the ground (no stabilisers etc.) and the vehicle must only occupy the same 'footprint' as when it is in motion.

So, while the term 'wild camping' is often used as a general term for staying overnight in locations other than in a camp site, its use to describe overnight parking as defined in the bye-laws which govern Aires where they are provided will only serve to hinder the development of a network of them in Ireland similar to what is available throughout mainland Europe.

there are by laws in certain parts here stating no sleeping overnight in vehicles.
it doesnt state camping or parking just no overnight sleeping.

As a certain famous comedian from NI said..........."it's the way ye tell it"

If we are to stand a chance of getting a decent network of French style 'Aires' up and running the first thing we need to get across to those in authority is that we are not proposing to set up 'camp' wild or otherwise, therefore IMHO we need to focus the minds of those who are currently making things difficult for us in the direction of providing 'parking' for us.

Consider this. A truck driver reaches the end of his working period and is required to rest for 10 hours. He/she pulls into a truck parking area, prepares a meal using the onboard microwave, afterwards watches a bit of telly or reads a book and then retires for the night to the bunk.
No body or other official could accuse the driver of 'camping'. And yet, the driver has done exactly what I have often done in my mh and some insist on calling it 'camping'.

While neither activity is probably defined in legislation, common sense and precedent clearly define them.

Bye-laws which proscribe overnight sleeping will apply to both the person sleeping in a MH or in a truck with a sleeper cab. BTW such a bye-law is somewhat ridicules as unless the vehicle is forcibly entered without disturbing the occupant it is not possible to ascertain if the person who answers the door was in fact sleeping.

To wrap, while some may consider the whole issue to be somewhat semantic but we do need to remove the 'camping' reference to the activity which is authorised on Aires throughout Europe if we are to see similar overnight parking being made available here.

Yes a lorry is a place of work in terms of H&S and smoking etc, but as a vehicle in a public place it's use is subject to parking and traffic regulations as a motor vehicle, just like any other vehicle.
Think on this, ANY behaviour or actions carried out within a vehicle while stationary is only subject to sanction if it is a cause of offence either to a member of the public or the environment, so once the blinds are drawn

As regards the laws in France. All Aires are subject to local bye-laws, the only input from central government was a directive in the early 1980's requiring local legislators to provide appropriate overnight parking facilities for motor caravans

is this a case of 'Shrodingers cat' being metaphorically let out of the bag as it where

I think this thread has gone a bit off track since the original post.

I see where Baguette is coming from with this.

If we, as Motorhome users are to move forward with the implementation of Aires in Ireland we should be supporting whatever action is required and not debating if we are parking or wild camping.

Maybe some of us are missing the bigger picture with regard to the work going on behind the scenes to encourage local authorities to introduce an Aire in their region.

As Motorhome Craic is fast becoming a national hub for motorhome users we should be supporting those who are making the effort to liaise with councils etc. Perhaps we should be embracing the terminology required in order to assist with the forward with the whole Aire de Service movement in Ireland

I, for one would be happy to be involved with assisting where possible. It would appear that “ The Motorhome Association” are the people to support in this case but there is no reference to them anywhere on the web.

If they are to be taken seriously they need to promote their activities and keep people inform of the latest developments.

With quite a few years experience in web design and online promotion I am only too aware of the importance of peoples perception of any group. One of the important questions at first meetings usually is “can I have your email address?” and the next is “ what is your website address?” If you don’t have the web presence you may not be taken as seriously as you think.

We are in an electronic age and people of all ages are taking to the internet for information and communication. I have heard a few references to the above mentioned association but it almost seems like it is a secret. How many others have the same opinion ?
A regularly updated web presence would also eliminate this impression.


In closing, I suggest that perhaps we, as a responsible group of motorhome owners should take this opportunity to support this action and start referring to locations as what is suggested. If we move forward with this initiative we could be the trailblazers and others will follow suit.

It would be good to receive a clear concise guide to the terms we ought to be referring to when we sleep in a location which is not a campsite.

surely there is the motorcaravanners club which has been knocking around from 1960 and is recognised across uk and ireland and european mainland

The aires in Spain also have similar signs explaining the rules. I think most motorhomers understand what is expected, but in my experience although most British and Irish motorhomers follow these rules, some (mainly continental and Scandinavian longtermers) spoil it for us by putting out sunbeds, solar panels, steps, levelling ramp etc.

I agree with ianmorgan. They're 2 different things.

Wild camping is just that, pulling up in a remote area, where there are no rules bar leave the place as you find it.

It has nothing to do with aires provided by local coucils in urban areas. I don't know what you call that but if it's goverened by the same rules as France then parking seems as good a term as any.

I think the 2 are getting confused on this thread.

Interesting debate, in the UK the use of motorhomes for habitation is governed principally by The Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act, I think there is similar legislation in NI.

This is my resume of the legislation,

In law, at least as regards the places where they may be stationed for the purposes of human habitation, motorhomes are included within the definition of a 'caravan' . The Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act (1960), states that a caravan is defined as:

" ... any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted ..."

The Act introduced the licencing of caravan sites, and defines a 'caravan site' as " ... land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed." Certain exemptions are allowed from the licencing requirements of the Act, these include:

" ... the use of land as a caravan site if the use is incidental to the enjoyment as such of a dwellinghouse within the curtilage of which the land is situated."
Meaning that, for example, you may occupy a caravan situated in your garden.

" ... the use of land as a caravan site by a person travelling with a caravan who brings the caravan on to the land for a period which includes not more than two nights—
(a)
if during that period no other caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation on that land or any adjoining land in the same occupation, and
(b)
if, in the period of twelve months ending with the day on which the caravan is brought on to the land, the number of days on which a caravan was stationed anywhere on that land or the said adjoining land for the purposes of human habitation did not exceed twenty-eight. "
This is the exemption which permits pubs, for example, to allow a motorhome to stay overnight on their car park. However only one motorhome is permitted at any one time and the landowner can only permit his land to be used for a maximum of 28 days in any period of 12 months. It does not, of course, give a right to station a caravan on any land, it simply means that the landowner does not need a caravan site licence. There may also be other, local, restrictions in force which prevent landowners permitting the stationing of a caravan on their land.


" ... land as respects which there is in force a certificate issued under this paragraph by an exempted organisation if not more than five caravans are at the time stationed for the purposes of human habitation on the land to which the certificate relates.
(2) For the purposes of this paragraph an exempted organisation may issue as respects any land a certificate stating that the land has been approved by the exempted organisation for use by its members for the purposes of recreation."
This allows 'Exempted Organisations' such as The Caravan Club, The Camping and Caravanning Club, and the Motor Caravanner's Club, among others, to set up CL (Certificated Location) and CS (Certificated Site) sites for use by their members. Whether the use of the sites is restricted to members only is up to the individual clubs to decide. As far as we know only the Motor Caravanner's Club allows non-members to use its CS sites.

" ... land occupied by the local authority in whose area the land is situated."
This is the most interesting exemption as far as the setting up of Stopovers is concerned, it allows local authorities to permit motorhomes to stay overnight on, for example, car parks or other land in their control.

It is this legislation that makes it difficult to set up 'aires' in the UK

I don't know whether Ireland has any similar legislation in place, but would be interested to find out.

AndyC

I quite agree, but the setting up of 'aires' does need a supportive local council. By-law or Traffic Regulation Orders do need to be changed which costs money. In the UK Havant BC and Fylde BC have just done this to allow motorhomes to stay overnight.

The legislation gets in the way of privately run 'aires', as far as council run ones in the UK are concerned there is no need for a site licence although planning consent might be needed. Privately run ones need a site licence and planning permission unless they are authorised for 5 motorhomes with a Exemption Certificate.

It's the planning issue that has scuppered the Devon local authority, Teignbridge District Council's plans to allow one of it's car parks to be used for overnight stays. They haven't the funds to progress it at the moment.

There does seem to be quite a push going on in Ireland to get 'aires' set up, which is excellent. Trying to get anything similar going over here in GB is an uphill struggle.

AndyC

What did Roscommon do ???????

A lot has happened since this thread was first created don't you think?