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baguette
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Galway

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Posted: 13.07.2015  ·  #1
SEE HERE

So we can't park overnight in Galway because The placing, erection or retention of a temporary dwelling on the roads proscribed under the bye-laws is prohibited

All legislation which prohibits the placing, erection bla bla bla of temporary dwellings is there for a reason. The reason is to do with planning controls and the protection of the environment from ill effects of such unauthorised developments.

Example Section 31 of the Local Government (Sanitary Services) Act, 1948 which is often quoted as being behind Bye-laws enacted to prevent motorhomes from parking as for example Galway City Council Parking Control Bye-Laws 2009 is there for PUBLIC HEALTH REASONS.
What has never been asked or explained is what is the reason for the parking ban,what is happening which requires an Act which concerns itself with Sanitary Services to be invoked.
All laws enacted must pass the test of being required to address some Mischief or some Defect in existing legislation.

When one looks at two vehicles parked and one is a motorhome unless the court can be satisfied the motorhome is causing a Mischief, causing to take place something which Section 31 of the Local Government (Sanitary Services) Act, 1948 seeks to address there can be no case to answer.

Lets look at Section 69 of Roads Act, 1993 in which is said "any person who without lawful authority erects, places or retains a temporary dwelling on a national road, motorway, busway or protected road shall be guilty of an offence". If the above is taken to include motor caravans then it illegal to actually use them at all, which is a nonsense. The Act clearly was not written to prevent the parking of motor caravans at the places where vehicle parking is permitted.

As one studies the various pieces of legislation which contain prohibitions on 'Temporary Dwellings' it is clear that they concern themselves with matters of sanitation, unauthorised development or misuse of a public place with detrimental effect on public or traffic safety.

While a motor caravan and for example an HGV with a sleeper cab can both defined as a 'temporary dwelling' they are both also a 'motor vehicle'.
A motor caravan is primarily in law a motor vehicle and is subject to traffic law (try telling a copper it is your dwelling if found drunk in charge)

FWIW, it's my opinion that once a motorhome is parked in a manner as is permitted for other vehicles of the same category (M or M1) the above regulations cannot be applied nor can any bye-laws which draw on them.
And, it is an acceptance of this proposition which was behind the amendment to The Waterford Beach Bye-laws 2015 which took out ban on motor caravan parking.

So, lets put finger to button or pen to paper and start an email or letter writing campaign to all the councillors and officials of Galway city and county asking them to explain in plain language the reason why the bye-laws directed specifically at motor caravans are needed and what Mischief they are addressing.
You might ask 'why Galway'. I say why not, they have put themselves in the firing line.

Remember, "because there are caravanning and camping parks available" is not a valid reason.


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Re: Galway

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Posted: 13.07.2015  ·  #2
Good man Colin,
I'm behind you 100%

I'm not great at wording official letters, any chance you might give us a rough idea what one would put in one? I'm sure there's more that would send emails letters etc if they had an idea of what to touch on,

Keep up the good work :up:


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Re: Galway

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Posted: 13.07.2015  ·  #3
Perfect, let's get going....


baguette
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Re: Galway

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Posted: 13.07.2015  ·  #4
Quote by mad max

Good man Colin,
I'm behind you 100%

I'm not great at wording official letters, any chance you might give us a rough idea what one would put in one? I'm sure there's more that would send emails letters etc if they had an idea of what to touch on,

Keep up the good work :up:


Hi mad max,

It's best to keep it simple with straightforward questions and most important don't just leave the question 'hanging' ask for a reply to the question, try and get them thinking :'(

At its simplest, a motorhome (motor caravan) is a legal road going vehicle in the same EU category as a car, if a car is permitted to park in a place why is a motorhome not?, what is it about a motorhome which requires it to be discriminated against?, what is the harm a motorhome does which a car does not?

If they say it's a pollution issue the Litter Pollution Act, 1997 provides for prosecution of any actions of pollution.
Parking is controlled by parking regulations
Pollution/littering is controlled by anti-pollution regulations
It's each to its own.

In all reports that are anti motorhome parking it's the pollution banner which is rolled out. If the problem is pollution then it is The Litter Pollution Act, 1997 which needs to be invoked NOT parking regulations.

A motorhome is an object (like a car) and should be left parked responsibly and the owner should attract whatever penalties are in place for failing to obey parking regulations.

However, if the owner or occupants of a motorhome or any other vehicle for that matter, create litter or pollution then an offence under The Litter Pollution Act is committed and that is where the remedy should lie not in denying the right to park.


I think a standard letter reduces the effect as it may be perceived as an 'easy option' orchestrated campaign. Separate letters/emails written by disgruntled individuals hold better sway.
It is best to weave the bits above into your own letter/email.
Ask the hard questions and ask for replies to the questions asked. If a reply is not received after seven days send a reminder that you are still waiting for their answer, repeat the reminder until you get the reply requested and if it's just a PFO reply insist on a satisfactory answer don't go away, keep after them.
It takes effort and commitment but don't expect them to change their position easily.

The word NO is favoured by those who are lazy and don't want to earn their salaries.
The word YES results in the need to actually do something other than The Times crossword.

Word the letter/email primarily in a way that you are looking for information and answers and leave the complaint implied.

Hope that helps


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Re: Galway

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Posted: 13.07.2015  ·  #5
Good man Colin,

Plenty to get started with there,

No doubt more will benefit from it as well,


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Re: Galway

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Posted: 13.07.2015  ·  #6
I support this but IMO we need to be very clear about what we are looking for! Parking, overnight parking or aire facilities? Confuse the matter and they will pick the easiest point to deflect and refute the whole argument.

The city council introduced the parking ban response to the number of campervans that parked up for the 2009 Volvo Ocean Race. {Of course their own inaction and lack of foresight in providing a temporary Aire facility is never questioned. The Poles could do it for the Euros but not Galway for the VOR!} Anyway, the problem is that with all the grace that come with a knee-jerk reaction they banned campervan/motorhome parking all along the promenade. Whereas what they should have done is banned overnight dwelling. To the best of my knowledge the only place in Galway city where motorhome parking is actually banned is on the promenade.

So now if you pull up to go for a walk, use the playground or go for a meal you are running the risk of getting a ticket. I actually have done this regularly usually staying less than an hour maybe two if going for meal in Salthill and have never gotten a ticket. But I shouldn't have to run that risk. This makes no sense, even for the campsites. Why would you stay at one of the Salthill campsites when you can't even park in Salthill for a couple of hours to enjoy a meal?

Now it is my belief that any campaign that sets its objective as overnight parking along the promenade is destined to fail. No councillor in her/his right mind is going to go for that. But daytime parking should be allowed if not along the whole promenade certainly from Seapoint to Grattan Park. This would allow motorhomer owners (including those staying at the campsites) to spend time and money in Salthill. This is also an easy request for the city council to give. They are seen to do something positive not only for motorhomer owners but also for the local business community. Furthermore, it doesn't cost them anything.

I would respectfully suggest that this (daytime parking along the promenade) should be the first objective of any campaign or individual letters. The second objective would be to allow for (and perhaps later provided facilities) controlled overnight parking in designated locations. A good location in Salthill would be the Leisureland Car Park. Again this could be done without any cost to the council. If it was also coupled with one or two other designated areas for overnight parking (such as the cathedral and /or blackbox car parks and the existing facilities at the docks) then Galway would not have any 'problem' with motorhomes.

In summary I would suggest:
1) Day time parking allowed - Seapoint to Grattan Park
2) Controlled overnight parking allowed (with reasonable stay restrictions)- Leisureland, Cathedral & Blackbox as possible locations.

Outcomes
The motorhome 'problem' in Galway is solved.
Galway opens up to the commercial benefits from motorhome visitors and can establish itself as key destination on the Wild Atlantic Way.
Galway City Council acting positively and bringing itself into like with other progressive local authorities (Cork Co Co & others) and even Board Failte who, thanks to MI, are now looking at providing facilities along the WAW.


Present them with Solution and Benefits. Don't expect them to think them up for themselves. That may sound a smart-Alex statement but it is not meant to be. They (the city councillors) are not motorhome users and only have one perspective on the issue.

Finally, I think this would be better coming from the MI and I would be more than happy to help out with that.


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Re: Galway

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Posted: 14.07.2015  ·  #7
Quote by Waterman

I support this but IMO we need to be very clear about what we are looking for! Parking, overnight parking or aire facilities? Confuse the matter and they will pick the easiest point to deflect and refute the whole argument.

The city council introduced the parking ban response to the number of campervans that parked up for the 2009 Volvo Ocean Race. {Of course their own inaction and lack of foresight in providing a temporary Aire facility is never questioned. The Poles could do it for the Euros but not Galway for the VOR!} Anyway, the problem is that with all the grace that come with a knee-jerk reaction they banned campervan/motorhome parking all along the promenade. Whereas what they should have done is banned overnight dwelling. To the best of my knowledge the only place in Galway city where motorhome parking is actually banned is on the promenade.

So now if you pull up to go for a walk, use the playground or go for a meal you are running the risk of getting a ticket. I actually have done this regularly usually staying less than an hour maybe two if going for meal in Salthill and have never gotten a ticket. But I shouldn't have to run that risk. This makes no sense, even for the campsites. Why would you stay at one of the Salthill campsites when you can't even park in Salthill for a couple of hours to enjoy a meal?

Now it is my belief that any campaign that sets its objective as overnight parking along the promenade is destined to fail. No councillor in her/his right mind is going to go for that. But daytime parking should be allowed if not along the whole promenade certainly from Seapoint to Grattan Park. This would allow motorhomer owners (including those staying at the campsites) to spend time and money in Salthill. This is also an easy request for the city council to give. They are seen to do something positive not only for motorhomer owners but also for the local business community. Furthermore, it doesn't cost them anything.

I would respectfully suggest that this (daytime parking along the promenade) should be the first objective of any campaign or individual letters. The second objective would be to allow for (and perhaps later provided facilities) controlled overnight parking in designated locations. A good location in Salthill would be the Leisureland Car Park. Again this could be done without any cost to the council. If it was also coupled with one or two other designated areas for overnight parking (such as the cathedral and /or blackbox car parks and the existing facilities at the docks) then Galway would not have any 'problem' with motorhomes.

In summary I would suggest:
1) Day time parking allowed - Seapoint to Grattan Park
2) Controlled overnight parking allowed (with reasonable stay restrictions)- Leisureland, Cathedral & Blackbox as possible locations.

Outcomes
The motorhome 'problem' in Galway is solved.
Galway opens up to the commercial benefits from motorhome visitors and can establish itself as key destination on the Wild Atlantic Way.
Galway City Council acting positively and bringing itself into like with other progressive local authorities (Cork Co Co & others) and even Board Failte who, thanks to MI, are now looking at providing facilities along the WAW.


Present them with Solution and Benefits. Don't expect them to think them up for themselves. That may sound a smart-Alex statement but it is not meant to be. They (the city councillors) are not motorhome users and only have one perspective on the issue.

Finally, I think this would be better coming from the MI and I would be more than happy to help out with that.


Waterman I think you are over complicating things.

Specific locations are not at issue.
Simply put, we should be looking for the same parking rights as for cars and it matters not what we do within our vehicles.

An Aire is a parking place specifically provided for motorhomes. Apart from Aires if parking is permitted at other locations there should be no discrimination against motorhomes. If a council wished to restrict the parking of motorhomes at particular places they should provide a suitable alternative area where parking is permitted.

If for some reason overnight parking is not permitted for some reason that is ok too so long as it applied to all vehicles.
An example of an overnight restriction on a specific type of vehicle would be a ban on refrigeration units where the compressor might disturb the nights sleep of local residents.

What one does inside ones own vehicle is of no concern to local authorities provided it causes no offence to public order or safety, so I'm not sure where you are coming from when you mention 'overnight dwelling', why should that be the subject of sanction.

Galway's parking ban is not confined to The Promenade but also includes, Salthill Road Upper, Quincentennial Drive, Rockbarton Road, Revagh Road, Western Dist Road, O'Donnell Road, Cappagh Road and in public carparks.


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Re: Galway

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Posted: 15.07.2015  ·  #8
Baguette, you can call it complicated but the word I would use is pragmatic. Given the clear anti-motorhome stance by some (councillors and/or officials) within Galway City Council it is my opinion that a pragmatic approach is the only one that will work. A pragmatic approach would give pro-motorhome councillors a plan to champion that is difficult to argue against (especially in the context of how other LAs are becoming more motorhome friendly).

However, a blanket approach that is legalistic and rights based (no matter how justified) gives pro-motorhome councillors nothing to champion. Those that want the parking ban have had it for years, without any challenge, and they are not going to give it up easily. And even if one 'wins' the legal argument there are numerous ways that an industrious official can frustrate and prevent MH parking even if it is not technically banned.

But that's just my opinion and I must concede that you, through your engagement with the MI, are more experienced in these matters than I.


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Re: Galway

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Posted: 22.07.2015  ·  #9
For info - Was talking to a nice chap in Galway TODAY emptying the meters at the docks where there was 3 motorhomes parked up at the docks. He confirmed that parking was available without hook up and suggested that you pay after 7pm (FOUR EUROS) AND THAT COVERS YOU TO 8AM.
This may be of use to others. :D


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Re: Galway

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Posted: 22.07.2015  ·  #10
Quote by BA9776

For info - Was talking to a nice chap in Galway TODAY emptying the meters at the docks where there was 3 motorhomes parked up at the docks. He confirmed that parking was available without hook up and suggested that you pay after 7pm (FOUR EUROS) AND THAT COVERS YOU TO 8AM.
This may be of use to others. :D


8am seems very early.can you put in extra money to cover you for a few more hours


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Re: Galway

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Posted: 22.07.2015  ·  #11
We stayed at the docks the Saturday before last. Read the sign saying 4 euro from 7pm to 8am - like Ken we thought 8am was very early so we put in extra money - when the ticket printed out it was only to 8am so we wasted a couple of euro!! We didn't see anyone about on the Sunday morning checking tickets (although we were rudely woken by the bin lorry around 7am). I think if you'd paid for the night it would be a bit much if you were clamped for running over your time by a small margin.


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Re: Galway

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Posted: 23.07.2015  ·  #12
Stayed ourselves on the 9th July just paid 4 euros went to McDonaghs for Fish and Chips
and back to MH to eat them,4 Bichon Freise on board so don't like to be too far away from
MH too long missed out on VAUGHANS in Liscannor (GOOD SEAFOOD BAR /RESTURANT)as schedule
had to change for collection of Granddaughter in Enniskillen on the 11th.To my knowledge ticket machines
will give more time after 8am if more money inserted as Italian Van just beside me paid 6 and had an extra
Hour on his ticket.For 4 Euros in heart of Galway Brilliant!!!!!! glad Council seen sense Some Spot .


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Re: Galway

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Posted: 23.07.2015  ·  #13
But isn't the docks parking nothing at all to do with the Council?

I thought it was provided by the Harbour Board.


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Re: Galway

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Posted: 23.07.2015  ·  #14
Quote by Scanner

But isn't the docks parking nothing at all to do with the Council?

I thought it was provided by the Harbour Board.


If it was Galway Co Co you certainty would not be parking you mh there,its owned by the Harbour board .


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Re: Galway

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Posted: 23.07.2015  ·  #15
That was the impression I had gained. Am I right in thinking GCC tried to stop it and the Harbour Board told them what they could do?


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