Fitting Extra Seat Belts

regulations to be met

 
 
 
 
 
 
jfly57
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Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 12.06.2015  ·  #1
Hi all,
I'm in the process of adding two new 3-point seat belts to the rear facing seats in our 95 Ci Wilk MH and want to be sure that it will meet the regulations for certification. I'm getting the work done with a neighbour who does light engineering work and does excellent work but I want to make sure everything is right for certification. I'm getting a structure produced very similar to what is used for the the belts on the front-facing seats - 4 mm steel plate on floor bolted to the chassis at four points and a 25 x 50 mm box steel structure rising from it to which the belts will be anchored plus one anchor point to the van pillar just behind the drivers seat. Someone recently told me that the 4 bolts to the chassis must also pass through a 4 mm plate added under the chassis though this is not the case for the other two belts fitted by the builder.
All advice most welcome,

Joe.
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 13.06.2015  ·  #2
Check with the [url]nasi.ie[/url]or [url]rsa.ie[/url]you should get the proper information there. :up:
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 13.06.2015  ·  #3
Thanks Taylor,
I will do just that on Mon morning.
Joe.
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 13.06.2015  ·  #4
If I remember right the rear facing seats on our last van were lap belts, all others were 3 point.
If you have an accident anybody sitting in a rear facing seat will be forced into the seat on impact, not against the seat belt, unless you were rear ended.
Have these belts to be inspected by somebody? If not, over engineer the mountin points and you will be fine. If you ask too many questions you are opening a mine field.
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 13.06.2015  ·  #5
I am in the same boat , I have finally found a suitable motorhome for my needs and I hope to do a deal in the next few days.
The only issue is I need a 3 point belt fitted to the rear facing seat, it needs to be 3 point to accommodate a child's seat.

I am wondering more about the sequence than anything really, is it an assessor who certifies it and who is the cert given to, is it at DOE stage it is needed? I also have a neighbor who will do the work to an over engineered standard and I have a friend who is an assessor for such things also.
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 13.06.2015  ·  #6
Campervan conversions are regulated by the NASI since the 29th of April 2012, they will have a list of licence holder's on there web site, contact one of them to get the information you need.
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 13.06.2015  ·  #7
You must also have strong properly fitted head restraints for the rear facing passengers otherwise if you do have a smash their bodies will be held by the seat but their heads will roll back and snap :( :sick:
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 13.06.2015  ·  #8
Quote by Flipperdipper

You must also have strong properly fitted head restraints for the rear facing passengers otherwise if you do have a smash their bodies will be held by the seat but their heads will roll back and snap :( :sick:


Very good point Liam! I would imagine that would be more important than the safety belts
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 15.06.2015  ·  #9
Thanks to you all for your opinions which I took on board in coming to my decisions. As you, Taylor, suggested I checked out the RSA website for seat belt fitting regulations and anchorage requirements. There I found a 14! page document on the topic but its content would apply mainly to PSV's I think.
I then contacted Rolor Commercials in Slieverue, nr Waterford, my nearest certification centre and had a very informative conversation with the lady who organises the inspections. She informed me that there is no regulatory requirement to fit seat belts to rear-facing seats in a camper (I had heard that before) and therefore there is no need to have my recently installed seat belts certified!

So that crystallised my decision - I'm not going to do something unnecessary and have them certified. However, I'll feel a lot more comfortable with having the belts fitted, giving added safety, in most cases, to our kid's friends who might be travelling with us.

As mentioned by Flipperclipper head support is crucial. We already had that for the RF seat nearest the side window as part of the original build and I added a 300 x 30 mm plywood plank (thanks to a Woodwork colleague) plus upholstered head-rest behind the second RF seat; it is screwed to the luton bed framework at the top and I got a 150 x 100 x 4 mm metal plate made to support it at the bottom. This plate is securely bolted to the metal framework I had made up for anchoring the seatbelts and this in turn is bolted to the chassis. The only change I might make is that I might change the bolts to high-tensile grade for added strength.

If anybody wants pics of the project I would gladly post them up.

Joe.
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 16.06.2015  ·  #10
Well done,its hard to get proper information,as regards the high tensile steel bolts check first with your engineer as i think they may snap easier then some bolts,i could be wrong. :up:
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 18.06.2015  ·  #11
Thanks Taylor. I'll check that one out. :D
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 18.06.2015  ·  #12
Quote by jfly57


So that crystallised my decision - I'm not going to do something unnecessary and have them certified. However, I'll feel a lot more comfortable with having the belts fitted, giving added safety, in most cases, to our kid's friends who might be travelling with us.



Can I suggest maybe rethinking this one. I know it's something that is not required legally but for me I would prefer to have the peace of mind that everything is done correctly and to an acceptable standard. I'm sure it will be costly to have certified but just imagine having an accident and your children being injured as a result of your work. It is something I would not rest easy driving around in. Even having a small accident where nobody is hurt could cause hassl for you with an insurance company. I have first hand experience dealing with them on two occasions and neither one was pleasant! They will look for a way out regardless.
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 20.06.2015  ·  #13
bit of a similar situation here - found a camper(converted iveco daily) i want to purchase but only 2 seats in front and need a third for my daughter. not sure where to start in terms of finding someone to fit (does it have to be forward facing?) seat and what spec it should be and how to ensure it's safely fitted and meets standards etc.

is this an expensive job also? safety comes first so with my budget might have to pass on this one if the extra seat will blow the budget.
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 20.06.2015  ·  #14
Hi Modjo
Where in the country are you, I can get you the number of a company in the midlands, but if you live west cork or north Donegal it might be to far. :up:
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 20.06.2015  ·  #15
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 21.06.2015  ·  #16
Thanks for the link, will check them out - I am based in Dublin. Any and all recommendations welcome (and any rough idea of cost for the job)


There was mention of DOE on this topic - does van need to go through a doe again when an extra seat goes in?do i have to change logbook?

Have to say, when it comes to campers there's so many grey areas and details to look into...every time I figure one thing out(tax, insurance, drivers license needed etc.) something else comes along to completely confuse me again!
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 23.06.2015  ·  #17
Thanks Reelkidmusic for your comments and it is the 'wobble' point in my decision not have the new belts certified, as outlined in my last post, especially considering that it is stated in the policy booklet that the insurance company must be informed of modifications to the camper. If I put it through CVRT and it passes does this offer one any comfort? Does that satisfy the insurance company?

I'm (back!) on the horns of a dilemma. I'll post you my final decision when I reach it!?!
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 23.06.2015  ·  #18
I don't think the CVRT will do much in this case. As far as I know, they will just check to see if the seat belts are locking and will retract. They may not even notice that there are more seats in the van than stated on the logbook.
I'm open to correction but I imagine you would have to book an inspection at the DOE centre to have it certified by SQI to ensure it is correctly fitted. It will offer peace of mind but it may not be anything more than a visual inspection by somebody in the DOE centre.

It's certainly not an easy decision to make and I don't envy you. Im looking forward to hearing what you do and if there is any sure way of getting it sorted easily and safely
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 23.06.2015  ·  #19
Very Important

Few people (including many in officialdom) understand the significance of the number given at (S.1) on the Vehicle Registration Certificate. RF101 (IRL) V5 (UK).

The number shown is the number of seats officially certified for carrying people in the vehicle, exceed that number of people and there are insurance validity issues plus the driver is open to prosecution for operating the vehicle with more people on board that is officially permitted.
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 25.06.2015  ·  #20
Thanks for that alert Baguette; it is of massive significance and one the lady in Waterford should have been aware of. It upends our plans to bring friends on a trip next week. :'(

The number at S.1 on my VR cert is 4! so I'm snookered and as you pointed out taking on board any more than 4 and my insurance is void. I'll have to get the added belts certified and then inform the insurance company. What's the betting there'll will be a mire of technicalities to be overcome in the process. :wallbash:

I'll update as I go through with the process, it might be of use to others embarking on a similar journey.
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its a grey area,

 ·  Posted: 03.07.2015  ·  #21
A few years ago if its a 5 berth it has to have five seat belts, before that 5 berth with four seat belts is legal, just not to current standards, people sitting backs to outside walls would only die as the vehicle stopped suddenly but would die from sliding fwd , where as people facing the motion or counter motion died from hitting tables or other nastys, bearing in mind you are protected by 1 mill of aluminium and 20 mill off polystyrene and 5 mill of wood effect ply wood, so that's 25 ish to 36 mill of nothing, yes I fitted a 3 pt seatbelt system, steel box section containing to seat belt reels at shoulder height for adults, and then welded a base plate to coincide with the chassis main frame and then sent it off to be galvanised, no corrosion, must take pics and let peps see, the motorhome may never survive a large collision but the seat belt system will, check out uk manufacturer's motorhome crash tests on google, it will surprise you.
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 03.07.2015  ·  #22
Nice sentence. LOL
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 04.07.2015  ·  #23
Quote by mark

Nice sentence. LOL


It would have been more useful in English. :whistle:
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 18.07.2015  ·  #24
Hi again,
the good news is I have the extra seating capacity and seat belts covered at LONG last by AXA and enjoyed the benefits immediately yesterday as we all headed off to Hook Head in ONE vehicle rather than going in the camper + a car!!!
Rather than being long-winded I'll give the sequence of stages involved in getting to the desired result:
- familiarise yourself with the RSA doc on their website regarding the minimum requirements for
anchorage
- design or have designed a strong steel structure to fit under-seat(exceed the min requirements for
peace of mind): it must be welded to a 4mm (min) floor-plate which is bolted to 2 (min) cross-
members of the chassis with load spreading plates on the underside. In my case one of the anchor
points was to the cab pillar behind left shoulder of driver (mine is a LH drive vehicle) + plus load-
spreading plate under the nut.
- purchase good quality E marked 3-point seat belts: I got mine on e-Bay - Securon manufactured, at a
very good price.
- fit the under-seat steel support structure and then the seat belts.
- take your camper to your nearest seat belt installation inspection garage for a Construction,
Equipment and Use Certification of Safety Belt Installation; in my case Rolor Commercials, Slieverue,
Co. Kilkenny. Hopefully your project will pass.
- send your Construction, Equipment and Use Certification of Safety Belt Installation to your local Motor
Tax accompanied by the Vehicle Registration Cert and covering letter. The Motor Tax office will
forward your docs to the Vehicle registration office in Shannon who will duly issue you with an
amended Vehicle Registration Cert to show the increased seating capacity.
- forward to your insurance Co. (a) your new VRC
(b) the Certification of Construction, Equipment and Use of Safety Belt
Installation
(c) photographs of the installation (all aspects of it)
and (d) covering letter to your Insurance Co.

In my case Dolmen forwarded all the docs to Axa for inspection. The outcome was positive; I hope yours is too!
If any member would like further info please feel free to pm me and I'll see if I can be of help.
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 18.07.2015  ·  #25
Good Show - well done with the installation and successful registration :up:
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 22.08.2015  ·  #26
Quote by jfly57

Thanks for that alert Baguette; it is of massive significance and one the lady in Waterford should have been aware of. It upends our plans to bring friends on a trip next week. :'(

The number at S.1 on my VR cert is 4! so I'm snookered and as you pointed out taking on board any more than 4 and my insurance is void. I'll have to get the added belts certified and then inform the insurance company. What's the betting there'll will be a mire of technicalities to be overcome in the process. :wallbash:

I'll update as I go through with the process, it might be of use to others embarking on a similar journey.


Hi, I'm a noob on the forum. I bought a 2nd hand 1992 coachbuilt 5 berth in May. It has 2 belts in the cab and 2 lapbelts in the back.I want to add a 5th (proper steel fabrication etc). I just checked the reg doc and at S.1 it says 2! So does this mean my insurance is invalid if 4 are in the van never mind 5? I hope not.
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 28.08.2015  ·  #27
I would think so unfortunately! I suspect a previous owner might have added the two lapbelts? I certainly wouldn't be happy with lapbelts from the current opinions of experts. If I was in your position I would be inclined to upgrade the lapbelts to 3 point anchorage belts and fit a similar belt to your 5th seat. After that proceed as I outlined above with certification, change of VR cert and finally inform your Insurance Co. Good luck; it's a tedious project but rewarding.
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 23.07.2016  ·  #28
Hello

I am thinking of installing extra seats - I was wondering what was the cost of getting the safety certificate on the new seats?
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Re: Fitting Extra Seat Belts

 ·  Posted: 10.04.2017  ·  #29
Can someone post up pics of the whats required for the seat belt fixings please.
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