Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 
 
 
 
 
MAURICE
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Re: Portstewart 17th 18th November

 ·  Posted: 15.11.2017  ·  #1
Every year dave its the same old thing .the hand brake iv taken as much out of the van to keep the weight down but fails on the hand brake every time.iv renewed everything but still no joy .
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Re: Portstewart 17th 18th November

 ·  Posted: 15.11.2017  ·  #2
Very annoying , maybe someone here has some ideas
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Re: Portstewart 17th 18th November

 ·  Posted: 15.11.2017  ·  #3
Hope so lol
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Portstewart 17th 18th November

 ·  Posted: 15.11.2017  ·  #4
Quote by MAURICE

Every year dave its the same old thing .the hand brake iv taken as much out of the van to keep the weight down but fails on the hand brake every time.iv renewed everything but still no joy .


Google . ( Fiat Ducato 2.3 130bhp hand break problems ) and you will realize you are not the only one with hand brake problems .

One suggestion being to drive around while applying the break to clear out any rust and give the linings a bit of a polish .
Have a read trough you may get some ideas

Best of luck with it.
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Re: Portstewart 17th 18th November

 ·  Posted: 15.11.2017  ·  #5
Maybe ask on a Peugeot forum,

Or some body that would be on some of the uk based motorhome forums may ask on your behalf
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Re: Portstewart 17th 18th November

 ·  Posted: 15.11.2017  ·  #6
A common problem, to which I don’t have an answer. I know an mot tester who commented on my van (which isn’t due for a year yet) his comment which you are aware of is to lighten the rear of the van as much as possible. I will ask further advice when I see him again.

I will post on a couple of Uk fora, but I don’t know if their criteria in Britain are as tight as ours.

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Re: Portstewart 17th 18th November

 ·  Posted: 15.11.2017  ·  #7
Does leaving the van parked up with the handbrake on cause the problem or is it because MH handbrakes don't get as much use?
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Re: Portstewart 17th 18th November

 ·  Posted: 15.11.2017  ·  #8
Maurice,

Here is a typical thread on the subject of handbrake failure on wildcamping.com

https://www.wildcamping.co.uk/…%2Bfailure

There are about 35 pages of threads which show when you search Peugeot+boxer+handbrake+mot+failure not all on hand brake problems of course. The Autosleeper forum is similar. Curiously motorhomefacts returns nothing but I must be doing that search wrong.

Probably the most knowledgeable guy on fiats (probably similar) is a fleet manager called euroserve on out and about live.com you could try posting there. Free membership.

Work through the wild camping thread and let me know what items that are mentioned have been seen to by you, or perhaps start a new thread on the handbrake on here. I know we have some good mechanics as members. It would make a good topic for the tech archive.

Anyway give me a bit more info and I will ask on a couple of English fora.

Davy
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Re: Portstewart 17th 18th November

 ·  Posted: 15.11.2017  ·  #9
I know that common sense is not a criteria in an MOT centre, but has anyone ever heard of a Motorhome causing a problem on our roads because it's handbrake was not holding to the high level required by these centres?
These are vehicles that in some cases are only covering a few hundred miles per year,not commercial vehicles covering hundreds of miles per day.
I once mot'd a tag axle and the guy who was doing the handbrake test has real difficulty getting the required readings yet if I had the handbrake on there was no way I could have drove off and after narrowly getting the MOT I tried this again and I would have burned the clutch out before I would have got moving.
I hope you get sorted soon Maurice.
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Re: Portstewart 17th 18th November

 ·  Posted: 15.11.2017  ·  #10
Quote by MAURICE

Every year dave its the same old thing .the hand brake iv taken as much out of the van to keep the weight down but fails on the hand brake every time.iv renewed everything but still no joy .


Sometimes renewing everything does not cure the problem as you may not be getting enough driving or bedding in time before the retest,what exactly has it failed on, is it not making the required percentage to pass the handbraking test? or is it imbalance?,both these figures will be recorded on your refusal notice down near the bottom of the page. Does your van have disc brakes or the drum brakes on the rear?
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Portstewart 17th 18th November

 ·  Posted: 16.11.2017  ·  #11
Quote by 2424

Does leaving the van parked up with the handbrake on cause the problem or is it because MH handbrakes don't get as much use?


This could probably be put in a separate post.
On or off the it really won't make a big difference, the surface area is going to rust, contact area with the brake on may not but what are the chances of you hitting the same place next time . the linkages are going to rust up , on or off.
I would go for plenty of lube on all cable /joints/swivel's.
Add pulling the leaver on and off a few times to your regular check's.
Maybe hold it on a little every time you drive it to clean off the rust and give it a bit of a polish.
People say don't park it up, with the brake on in case it sticks , but for me I want to know it not sticking, before I leave home.
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Re: Portstewart 17th 18th November

 ·  Posted: 16.11.2017  ·  #12
I dont know of a MH that sees as much road :happy: ....id doubt its rust anyway
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Portstewart 17th 18th November

 ·  Posted: 16.11.2017  ·  #13
Quote by mad max

I dont know of a MH that sees as much road :happy: ....id doubt its rust anyway


Still no mater how much driving you do ,the parking brake is only used when stopped, so you will know its not sticking and it will hold ok. But that's not what they do when testing it, and the surface could still be rusty.
If you ever looked at the discs of your car after its been parked for a few days in wet conditions.
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 16.11.2017  ·  #14
Split for future reference ! :) hopefully the problem can be sorted Maurice - I don't know much about them but will be learning soon myself as it failed to hold me on a hill a couple of weeks back!
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 16.11.2017  ·  #15
Maurice,
What year is your van?
Is it drum or disk rear brakes?
If disk, is the handbrake cable connected to the rear caliper?
Or is it separate set of shoes?
What have you replaced?
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 16.11.2017  ·  #16
There are two reasons why a good handbrake will fail in a FIAT Ducato, both related to the fact that it's not a handbrake in the traditional sense, it's a parking brake

1. It's a parking brake, designed to hold the vehicle when already stationary, it's not design function is not for it to be applied when in motion to bring the vehicle to a halt, in the manner of an emergency brake or the traditional handbrake.
2. The 'handbrake' itself is a small drum brake, about the size as that in the back of the old Mini, which gets no use when the vehicle is being driven. For that reason there is an inevitable build up of rust and dust which reduces it's stopping effect.

The proper way to test the type of brake in the Ducato is to test the effort required to overcome its holding power. Testing its stopping power is to misunderstand its function.

The best thing to do before a test is to drive a few hundred metres, or further, with the handbrake light applied to clean off any rust and create a clean contact area.
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 16.11.2017  ·  #17
The handbrake / parking brake test is very subjective in my observations of vehicles been tested. Firstly you are depending of the tester pulling the lever up enough to engage the brake for a successful test. Secondly if your supension is soft, when the rollers engage the wheels to test the torque required to slip the parking brake, the van will move on it springs, giving the sensation that the vehicle has moved when in fact the axel hasn't budged an inch.
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 16.11.2017  ·  #18
Does some Ducato's not have a rear disc and a drum?

Disc for stopping, drum for parking. Or did I dream that? I am sure some vehicles do?

Funny that I have never had a problem, yet Maurice has difficulties every year!
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 16.11.2017  ·  #19
My van is on drum brakes.wen my van is parked with the hand brake you couldnt move it without burning the clutch yet wen it goes on the rollers at the mot centre it fails every time .its pretty heavy on the back end with a big overhang .i strip everything out of it too. Il let you all know next tuesday nite after the 4th mot test at 7pm
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 16.11.2017  ·  #20
👍 good luck
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 16.11.2017  ·  #21
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 16.11.2017  ·  #22
Sand blasting shiny Disks or Drums just might give you enough resistance to Pass, Maurice.
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 16.11.2017  ·  #23
Quote by Ally

Does some Ducato's not have a rear disc and a drum?

Disc for stopping, drum for parking. Or did I dream that? I am sure some vehicles do?

Funny that I have never had a problem, yet Maurice has difficulties every year!


It's a drum within a disc, commonly called a 'top hat' because it resembles one in shape.
Follow This Link to see.

The little drum wouldn't make much of a job bringing a 4 tonne MH to a stop in an emergency.
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 16.11.2017  ·  #24
AFAIK Maurices MH is on drum brakes at rear similar to my one,
The brake shoes are also the handbrake shoes,
So no rust to worry about building up on them as when you are driving most weekends its getting plenty of polishing etc,

My old Vectra had the top hat that Colin is referring to and the handbrake was as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 18.11.2017  ·  #25
Does the Peugeot have a load sensing valve similar to some of the Fiats
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 18.11.2017  ·  #26
Quote by mad max

Does the Peugeot have a load sensing valve similar to some of the Fiats


Would think the peugeot is the same as my Citroen relay, its located just above the rear axle and is adjusted by an adjustable link arm which is attached to the axle.
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 18.11.2017  ·  #27
Maurice,
That may be an option to adjust the lard out of that until it passes,
May be return it to where it was if it was holding ok on handbrake
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 19.11.2017  ·  #28
The foot brake is not an issue on the rollers.its the handbrake that lets it down john.
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 19.11.2017  ·  #29
My thinking was that if it "pulls" the brakes on a bit sooner it may do the same for the handbrake,
Im clutching at straws really... :-/
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 19.11.2017  ·  #30
Quote by MAURICE

The foot brake is not an issue on the rollers.its the handbrake that lets it down john.


I don't mean to be splitting hairs on this one and no offence to anyone.
We all call the yolk we pull up the 'handbrake' and that goes back to the old days before such things as dual circuit braking systems when a burst in the system meant all the hydraulically operated brakes were gone and the only chance of stopping was to pull on the cable operated 'handbrake'

Nowadays that leaver is often just to operate a parking brake, in fact that operation is now done electrically on some cars . One of the things testers need to recognise is that the 'handbrake' is no longer designed to fulfil the roll as an emergency brake and they should stop testing it as such. A test needs to be implemented to measure its holding power as a parking brake.
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 19.11.2017  ·  #31
Ah Colin that would mean bureaucracy would need a brain
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 12.12.2017  ·  #32
My motorhome is based in a Fiat with an Alko tandem axle chassis. I bought it new in 2003 and since its first MOT it has never ‘officially ‘ passed on the handbrake. I have been over the Alps loads of times and it will hold on the steepest hill. The guys at the MOT centre have accidentally touched the foot brake during the test and it has passed. I took it to Fiat who just said that tag axles do that. Took it to a local guy who put it on a rolling road, swapped the internal brake shoes from middle axle to rear axle and charged me £175 (about 8 years ago). Last year I got new cables made and replaced the brake shoes,needless to say it failed. My long suffering mechanic dreads to see me coming each year with a new idea to try and get it through. The problem appears when the middle and rear brake cables are connected together. When tested separately and not connected I could do handbrake turns.It failed again this year coming up with 12% where it needs16% and above. I had a bright idea to modify a lever that is at the end of the handbrake cable before it connects to the rest of the system,to try and get a bit more leverage on the two cables coming from the shoes. Eureka it passed by getting a whopping 17%
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 18.12.2017  ·  #33
Quote by TommyS

My motorhome is based in a Fiat with an Alko tandem axle chassis. I bought it new in 2003 and since its first MOT it has never ‘officially ‘ passed on the handbrake. I have been over the Alps loads of times and it will hold on the steepest hill. The guys at the MOT centre have accidentally touched the foot brake during the test and it has passed. I took it to Fiat who just said that tag axles do that. Took it to a local guy who put it on a rolling road, swapped the internal brake shoes from middle axle to rear axle and charged me £175 (about 8 years ago). Last year I got new cables made and replaced the brake shoes,needless to say it failed. My long suffering mechanic dreads to see me coming each year with a new idea to try and get it through. The problem appears when the middle and rear brake cables are connected together. When tested separately and not connected I could do handbrake turns.It failed again this year coming up with 12% where it needs16% and above. I had a bright idea to modify a lever that is at the end of the handbrake cable before it connects to the rest of the system,to try and get a bit more leverage on the two cables coming from the shoes. Eureka it passed by getting a whopping 17%


The 'problem' with Alko double axle systems (tags) is that they are two separate axles separately bolted to the chassis. In this configuration the load is only shared equally when both axles are on level ground.
When being tested the axle on the rolling road is lower than the one not being tested and has much of its load removed by the one on the solid ground. This prevents an accurate measurement of the effectiveness of it brakes.

The normal set-up for a tag, as in HGV's etc., is that both axles are connected to the chassis/suspension system so the the load is shared equally, even when they are on significantly uneven surfaces.

To accurately test the brakes on an Alko double axle configuration a double rolling road, spaced the same as the axles, needs to be used.
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 27.02.2018  ·  #34
Done the DOE today and camper passed.🤠
The tester said that the rear brakes need more use to avoid seizing up, and to give the camper a good run. Not sure if that means applying the brakes more persistently, when on the move, to wipe off the rust or what exactly he had in mind. I could not discuss it with him as he was in the middle of another test. Needless to say I was pleased to get the pass and get the camper home before the snow that’s forecast hits us.
Is this the same problem as in this earlier thread?🤔
Camper is Peugeot base, single rear axel. I recollect been told this last year as well.
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 27.02.2018  ·  #35
i was told to run the van every week to keep the brakes from seizing.
Even to drive it forward and back applying the brakes a few times, which i started doing. But once in the van i just drive for about 40 kms to keep everything sweet
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 01.03.2018  ·  #36
Tks folks, Tks Robandsue for info.
No point doing any driving until Beast and Emmy are behind us.
Regards, and survive the blizzards.
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 01.03.2018  ·  #37
to seat pads
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 05.10.2018  ·  #38
Just passed mot but with the usual problem with the handbrake. I had to sweet talk the examiner to keep trying until it passed. The first reading was 14%, second and third 15%. It eventually passed with 16% on the 4th try. Just need to find someone who can do brakes properly. At least I have another year
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 06.10.2018  ·  #39
Tommy, what make is your Motorhome?
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Re: Handbrake issue ( MOT) split

 ·  Posted: 06.10.2018  ·  #40
Euramobil on a Fiat Ducato 18, 2.8. 2003, tag axle 4500kg.
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